Vanderhoven7, does your idea of resurrection of Christians to life in heaven include the idea the human soul of those Christians completely ceased to be, and was later recreated by God as a spirit soul (much like the the WT says happens to the 144,000)? What about your idea of people from pre-Christian becoming resurrected? In your mind do their human souls completely cease to exist and later become recreated/cloned? Or, do their human souls become dormant (such as asleep) and later become revived. Do you believe that Christian go to heaven immediately after their human bodies die (or starting after 70 CE, right after die), or do you believe they go heaven at a future time in a rapture when Christ (according to the Bible) comes to execute judgment at around the time of Armageddon, or do you believe they go heaven at some other time?
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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Hell, what is it
by Anony Mous inso perhaps we all heard the jw story about jesus talking to gehenna and he was referring to a place outside the city where there was a dump burning refuse and everyone knew what it meant.. according to jw.org: tradition relates that the valley of hinnom thereafter became a place for the disposal of garbage.
and the bible provides confirmation for this.
at jeremiah 31:40, for example, the valley of hinnom is evidently called the “low plain of the carcasses and of the fatty ashes.” there was also the “gate of the ash-heaps,” a gate that seems to have opened out onto the eastern extremity of the valley of hinnom at its juncture with the kidron valley.—nehemiah 3:13, 14.. i think i heard that in the study of the greatest teacher book first.
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Disillusioned JW
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Hell, what is it
by Anony Mous inso perhaps we all heard the jw story about jesus talking to gehenna and he was referring to a place outside the city where there was a dump burning refuse and everyone knew what it meant.. according to jw.org: tradition relates that the valley of hinnom thereafter became a place for the disposal of garbage.
and the bible provides confirmation for this.
at jeremiah 31:40, for example, the valley of hinnom is evidently called the “low plain of the carcasses and of the fatty ashes.” there was also the “gate of the ash-heaps,” a gate that seems to have opened out onto the eastern extremity of the valley of hinnom at its juncture with the kidron valley.—nehemiah 3:13, 14.. i think i heard that in the study of the greatest teacher book first.
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Disillusioned JW
Anony Mous, I was shocked when I read your comment of "There was no refuse dump that continuously burned, there is no literary, biblical or archeological reference to such place, and a place like that would leave quite a footprint you’d think." I thought there was really was such a dump existing for centuries before 30 CE. I thought such ever since I read the idea in WT literature and thought it was a historical fact. Your comment is very educational and revelation (of naturalistic kind) to me.
Anony Mous and anyone else, does that mean that when Jesus (according to the NT Bible) spoke of Gehenna he meant it is a place of eternal conscious torment instead of the annihilation?Anony Mous, due to your post, I now think the WT used the tradition of a refuse dump that continuously burned in which already dead evil people were tossed into, in order to defend the WT's idea of Gehenna being a place of annihilation instead of eternal conscious torment.
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Hell, what is it
by Anony Mous inso perhaps we all heard the jw story about jesus talking to gehenna and he was referring to a place outside the city where there was a dump burning refuse and everyone knew what it meant.. according to jw.org: tradition relates that the valley of hinnom thereafter became a place for the disposal of garbage.
and the bible provides confirmation for this.
at jeremiah 31:40, for example, the valley of hinnom is evidently called the “low plain of the carcasses and of the fatty ashes.” there was also the “gate of the ash-heaps,” a gate that seems to have opened out onto the eastern extremity of the valley of hinnom at its juncture with the kidron valley.—nehemiah 3:13, 14.. i think i heard that in the study of the greatest teacher book first.
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Disillusioned JW
Vanderhoven7 I remember you made a post in which you said you wrote and published a book stating your analysis and view about human souls and about hell. I haven't read that book but please answer in this forum the following. Do you believe that human souls (or human minds) die when their bodies die? Or, do you believe that some human souls exist alive to some extent (such as a shade) until after the 1,000 years, which according to Revelation is when the dead are released from Hades, after which some of them they then attain full life (by resurrection) and the rest go into Gehenna?
Are you an independent Christian, or you are a member of a specific church or denomination of Christianity? If the later, which church or denomination are you a member of of? Also, what are your views about evolution; do you believe God used it to make major kinds of living beings? Do you believe the biblical flood account? If so, do you believe it was a global flood or a local flood? If you don't believe the biblical flood account, do you think the writer (or writers) of the account intended it to thought of a global flood or as a local flood?
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Hell, what is it
by Anony Mous inso perhaps we all heard the jw story about jesus talking to gehenna and he was referring to a place outside the city where there was a dump burning refuse and everyone knew what it meant.. according to jw.org: tradition relates that the valley of hinnom thereafter became a place for the disposal of garbage.
and the bible provides confirmation for this.
at jeremiah 31:40, for example, the valley of hinnom is evidently called the “low plain of the carcasses and of the fatty ashes.” there was also the “gate of the ash-heaps,” a gate that seems to have opened out onto the eastern extremity of the valley of hinnom at its juncture with the kidron valley.—nehemiah 3:13, 14.. i think i heard that in the study of the greatest teacher book first.
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Disillusioned JW
Anony Mous and anyone else, well then according to the NT what did Jesus mean when talking about being tossed into Gehenna, or from a literary (or Bible as literature) perspective what did the character Jesus mean about Gehenna in the story about being tossed into Gehenna?
What do you think of what The Oxford Companion to the Bible (Edited by Bruce M. Metzger and Michael D. Coogan) says about it under the heading of "Gehenna". Under that heading it says "Gehenna was originally the Hebrew name of a valley just south of Jerusalem's southwestern hill (Joshua 15.8) called "the valley of Hinnon". It also talks about later meanings, including in Jewish apocalypticism "influenced by parallelism with Persian ideas of a judgment in fire".
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Should Jehovah's Witnesses Trust the Governing Body?
by Vanderhoven7 inif there is evidence that jesus invisibly chose specific men at headquarters in brooklyn new york in 1919 to be his faithful slave and that mandate and ability passed on to future directors...then the answer might just be a resounding maybe.. what is the evidence for this invisible appointment and what is the evidence that this is just watchtower mythology?.
i hope jws like scholar and fisherman will explain why the trust the gb.. i must be honest, i see no evidence at all to put trust in either the 1919 selection or the current men taking the lead in warwick.
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Disillusioned JW
In light of Psalm 146:3 (NKJV) which says "Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help", please consider the following questions.
Should Christians put their trust in the Apostle Paul and in what he wrote in his letters which are included in the NT? Should Christians put their trust in the Letter called Hebrews and in the human who wrote it down? Should Christians put their trust in those NT letters which self identify as being written by the Apostle Paul but which modern NT critical scholars say are written under a false name, and should Christians put their trust in the person or persons who wrote those letters? Should Christians put their trust in the NT letters attributed to John and Peter and should Christians put their trust in the humans who those letters.? Should Christians put their trust in the John who is attributed as writing down the NT book called Revelation? Should Christians put their trust in what humans wrote down in the books making up the Hebrew-Aramaic scriptures (OT), and should they trust those humans wrote down those books?. What about those books called Apocryphal?
Should Christians put their trust in the miracle claims written down in the Bible (OT and NT) by humans?
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Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?
by smiddy3 ini don`t think so .
hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.
with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..
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Disillusioned JW
Consider what is said at https://www.noemamag.com/the-conscious-universe/ in the article called "The Conscious Universe: The radical idea that everything has elements of consciousness is reemerging and breathing new life into a cold and mechanical cosmos."That article says in part the following.
'Recent research into slime mold — a single-celled eukaryotic organism that has no brain, no nervous system and looks like a yellow puddle — found that it makes decisions, perceives its surroundings and can choose the most nutritious food from numerous options. As an experiment, researchers arranged oat flakes in the geographical pattern of cities around Tokyo, and the slime mold constructed nutrient channeling tubes that closely mimicked the painstakingly planned metropolitan railway system. At Columbia University, the biologist Martin Picard has discovered that mitochondria, the organelles found in the cells of almost every complex organism, “communicate with each other and with the cell nucleus, exhibit group formation and interdependence, synchronize their behaviors and functionally specialize to accomplish specific functions within the organism.” Nobody is concluding that mitochondria are conscious, but if an animal the size of a dog acted like this, would we intuitively ascribe to it some basic level of consciousness?'
Regarding what is said above about slim molds, I saw that demonstrated in a science program on PBS television broadcast and I was very impressed by it.
See also https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-consciousness-pervade-the-universe/ in the article called 'Does Consciousness Pervade the Universe? : Philosopher Philip Goff answers questions about “panpsychism” '.
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Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?
by smiddy3 ini don`t think so .
hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.
with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..
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Disillusioned JW
Fisherman I believe you have given an accurate idea of Krauss' idea of the universe, such as "that the universe, its drive , description and dynamics always existed". I agree with that view, that the universe (according to some definition of the word "universe) or nature, has always existed. To me that is what science strongly points because science has not found a beginning to dynamic energy and thus not a beginning to nature. As a result to me that means there that nature (and the universe in a broad sense which includes what existed prior to the big bang) was never created and thus there is no creator, and thus no God. I am satisfied with that idea. But to me that is not miraculous, at least not in the supernatural since, though it is highly amazing and mysterious. To me the universe in the broad sense, namely nature, is all there is and it influences us and we are a part of it. Maybe that view means nature is ultimate.
I also think that perhaps on some level the universe as a whole might be conscious. By that I mean in the sense of panpsychism, and even that what exists at the quantum level might be the building 'blocks' of such consciousness. Thus, to some extent we (Fisherman, slimboyfat, and I) might have some degree of commonality in regards to the idea of intention being bound up in (or playing a role in) the existence of the universe.
https://blog.unitedseminary.edu/the-canvas/religious-naturalism-a-theology-for-uu-humanists-part-i-0 says the following about religious naturalism. [I am a naturalist, but I am not religious and thus not a religious naturalist. I do however have the same view about naturalism as stated in the following quote, except for me not being religious.]
'For the religious naturalist, nature is ultimate; there is nothing above, beyond, or in addition to nature. For that reason, the religious naturalist is vehemently anti-supernaturalistic. There are no supernatural entities of any sort, no heavenly realms or otherworldly destinies, no overarching cosmic purpose or direction, no miracles or special revelations, and no immortal souls that live on after death. Such items, as Wesley Wildman cleverly puts it, are not on the religious naturalist’s “ontological inventory” (Wildman 2014: 42-43). Nor is there any anthropomorphic divine being determining or guiding the course of history. Once again, what there is, and all there is, is nature. This means that there is nothing outside of nature, and anything that does exist, including humans and their civilizations, is a part of nature.'
slimboyfat you might appreciate the following which is also said on that web page.
'I think it is fair to say that Unitarian Universalism is the foremost liberal religion in America today. And, to me, religious naturalism is the quintessential expression of a liberal theological outlook. Like UU liberals, religious naturalists are anti-authoritarian to the core, insisting on a free and responsible search for truth and meaning. Like UU liberals, religious naturalists draw on a diverse array of sources such as science, poetry, art, and the world religions. Like UU liberals, religious naturalists look to the guidance of reason and experience, including the “direct experience of that transcending mystery, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life.” For the religious naturalist, that transcending mystery is nature itself.'
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Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?
by smiddy3 ini don`t think so .
hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.
with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..
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Disillusioned JW
Diogenesister I noticed you said that ".... we evolved from an ape like creature some 100 - 200, 000 years ago" but wasn't that species a species of human (though not our species, Homo sapiens) of the genus Homo? Granted it might have also been an ape since a number of scientists now say we modern day humans are also apes, since those scientists have adopted a new definition of the word "ape". However far before 200,000 years ago there existed a nonhuman species of ape which was one of our ancestral species (that is, a species which is a distant ancestor of our species).
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Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?
by smiddy3 ini don`t think so .
hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.
with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..
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Disillusioned JW
Ding, please read the book by physicist Lawrence M. Krauss (an atheist) called A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing, or some other scientific source promoting the same main idea. Theoretical physicist and cosmologist Stephen Hawking (an atheist who is now dead) and particle physicist Victor J. Stenger (an atheist who is now dead) also promoted the idea that our universe came from (or at least could have come from) that which commonly is thought of as nothing. If you read what they say you will learn their explanations of how such is completely in harmony with the laws of nature, including all of the conservation laws of nature. See also my topic threads about scientific naturalism, since I discuss the evidence and reasoning there. Learning those ideas of theirs (I first learned it from Hawking) is what caused me to cease wondering if a deistic type of god exists; as a result I become a positive/strong atheist scientific naturalist (namely someone convinced well beyond a reasonable doubt that no god at all exists pertaining to our universe).
In light of modern scientific knowledge the God (or intelligent creator-designer) concept no longer has any explanatory power for the existence of us, or of other life on Earth, or even of our universe. As a result the God (or intelligent creator-designer) concept is no longer needed.
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Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?
by smiddy3 ini don`t think so .
hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.
with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..
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Disillusioned JW
We are all subject to the laws and forces of nature. For example if a person jumps off the top of a very tall building that person will very quickly experience their subjection to the force of gravity. Unless the person is using a parachute, or a jet pack (or some other device for providing levitation in harmony with the laws of nature), or unless there a net (or something similar) below them, the person will soon pay the price for trying to ignore his/her subjection to the force of gravity.
The reason given by some about us being social beings/animals (I prefer to not say "creatures" since that term calls to mind the idea of a creator god) and how that regulates our actions is also relevant. Non-human apes are also social animals and they also have a sense of morals as a result, and sometimes they break one of their communitiy's social rules (especially if they think the others in their group won't observe their intended action). Anthropologists have discovered that about them, yet the Bible does not say the nonhuman apes were made in God's image and the Bible does not say they inherited sin, and the Bible does not say they are sinners, and the Bible does not say they need to believe in Yahweh and Jesus.
The idea that "There are a lot of things we don't know and have not figured out, and as long as those gaps exist, our need to be certain will guide us towards religious belief" is unsettling to me. I hope that idea is incorrect. Though I am uncomfortable about being uncertain about certain matters, I don't want to jump to the idea that a god or something else supernatural exists. I prefer to tell myself "I don't know" rather than try to fill in a gap of my knowledge by telling myself "a god exists" and I wish that most other people adopted that same attitude.
If I had never been raised to believe in the god concept I would never have believed in it, despite living in a culture which is permeated with belief in the god concept. I was born with the natural tendency to not believe in god, nor in any other concepts of spirits. Philosopher Alvin Plantinga is a Christian and despite what he believes, I do NOT believe at all "... that our ability to understand the world around us accurately implies intention behind the process that has given us life."
I notice that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga says Plantinga has the following ideas. 'Plantinga has also argued that there is no logical inconsistency between the existence of evil and the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, wholly good God. ... Plantinga's argument (in a truncated form) states that "It is possible that God, even being omnipotent, could not create a world with free creatures who never choose evil. Furthermore, it is possible that God, even being omnibenevolent, would desire to create a world which contains evil if moral goodness requires free moral creatures." ' I think that each of those ideas of Plantinga are incorrect! I notice that the Wikipedia article says the following which agrees with my view regarding the above stated ideas of Plantinga.
'However, the argument's handling of natural evil has been disputed. According to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the argument also "conflicts with important theistic doctrines" such as the notion of a heaven where free saved souls reside without doing evil, and the idea that God has free will yet is wholly good. Critics thus maintain that, if we take such doctrines to be (as Christians usually have), God could have created free creatures that always do right, contra Plantinga's claim.[41] J. L. Mackie saw Plantinga's free-will defense as incoherent.'
Regarding the number of tenths of astronomical units between planets in our solar system, I don't see that as implying the existence of an creator being, since I suspect that the measurements given are simply rounded to the nearest tenth of an astronomical unit.